Curse

Jeremy Untouchable · Mar 28, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

i did notice the aggro was out of order in cantha, I only played a warrior, allthou i did try w/a w/r w/mo...but mobs would agroo and patrol in strange ways. On a differnt subject, If the mobs didnt agroo on the item holders, then some quests would be easy, and repeatable. like the one in ferndale

SpeedyKQ · Mar 28, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Lastly, why will the PvE experience be degraded for you by Ash Tank farming? Nobody can answer this question in this entire thread with any clarity.

If they don't fix the exploit, W/Rt ash-tanks will be much, much better than any other warrior build. Lack of balance and variety is bad for the game. And it won't even be a fun build to play. Most people, when they select "Warrior" on the character creation screen, will probably be wanting to swing a weapon once in a while.

And there will be all sorts of arguments where ash-tanks will be accused of being unoriginal and cookie cutter, and non ash-tank warriors will be criticized for running weak builds. I don't see any upside.

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skie_M

Oh, that's a really funny thing you said: If you don't like the fix on the "item holding" bug, you can go somewhere else too. The point here is that EVERY area of the game will be farmable with the "SF Gear Trick". I'm just asking you to THINK... it's not hard to figure out. I also farm UW with my 55 monk or SS nec, so what?? That's not the issue here.

I never said go somewhere else. I only said that in terms of gear/barrel holding that shouldn't be a problem for so many people. If you don't want to play the game that way then don't, but stop petitioning for a change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skie_M

You say that others are not making valid points about how to defend or fix the exploit, but you haven't fairly proved your own points either. Oh, and yes, there's more than just farming left. My necro, for example, is close to getting all the skills in the game, but I'll need more time when Factions comes, for the additional skills. Experience gain is not the same as item farming, since you can gain experience from missions/quests and item farming. As for low level characters... I have none, but I still have things to do in PvE.

Proof: I enjoy the game by farming. I harm nobody by farming. I get stuff and sell it in a highly competitive free market. I have things to do in PvE as well. I help guildmates, farm and go on new quests when they are available. I also devote time to PvP so I stay fresh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skie_M

Think about this, for example: If Minion Master skills like Animate Bone Horror/Fiends triggered the monsters to attack you to the exclusion of all else, how would you play that type of character? Or if Spiteful Spirit triggered such an attack? A simple explaination would be that the monsters would feel that your character is far too dangerous to them, so let's kill you first at all costs. Would you not feel that it is unfair? Would you not feel that it just isn't right? This is what's happenning to the Ritualist class. The lack of a seriously programmed monster AI is very visible now. If this doesn't make you think about it, then I feel sorry for you.

I'm taking a wait and see attitude, but I do think that if there is truly a problem with urns and unwanted aggro then it should be remedied.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skie_M

One more thing: You defend the gear trick a lot ... why? Because you farm faster with it?

Yes that's exactly why I'm defending it, but also because there is no point in removing it from the game. It in no way detracts from the play of other people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skie_M

This is a good example for the dumb monster AI on the Book in FoW: In the waterfall of the spider cave, more than 20 spiders spawn. Guess what? They all attack the brillian tank who is also the book holder. Can you explain the "gameplay" here? It's just "heal tank + heal tank + heal tank + heal tank". Can you reply to this and tell me what makes it so interesting? I would like to see your answer.

I don't argue that it's interesting. I'm saying it's effective and I can make platinum doing it. That platinum finances my other aspects of playing this game and that's what I enjoy. You need to make that distinction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skie_M

Imagine a Ritualist there, using the -% energy cost urn or the + energy per cast urn ... He would be owned in seconds.

You seem to want to ignore an entire line of skills in your favorite class, because it aggros everything in sight and you die within seconds. As for everybody else ... Just because it has little impact on PvP, you can ignore that kind of thing in PvE ?? How very funny of you to say that...

Once again, I'm not arguing about the urn. If there's a real problem then let's get it fixed, but at least I need more time to see if an issue really exists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skie_M

Ok ... it's translated .. I agree with some of his/her sentiments and arguements, and I am also patiently waiting for your reply. It does not take much effort to get the gist of what someone is saying, even if it is in broken english or not phrased properly. Try not to put down an intelligent person just because they dont speak your language. The GuildWars game is based in an international setting, so expecting everybody to speak/read/write everything fluently in say ... Han`Gul (Korean), for example, is quite rediculous. Have a care for the feelings and knowledge of others, and try to show some understanding once in a while. Who knows? You might even make more friends that way...

Thanks for the translation. Sorry, but I don't want to take the time to translate stuff like that. At a minimum I expect a person to be able to convey his/her points clearly. (Maybe that's asking too much.) I realize that English may be a second language for some people but the burden is on them to be clear if they choose to post in a forum where English is the primary language. Just my bias.

Also, please don't imply that I can't or don't make friends. I've got a fair amount of them regardless of your impression of me.

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

My opinions are my own, they are not up for debate.

Why express in a public forum? Once you do that then they leave the cave and enter the light.

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 08:58 PM // 20:58

One last thing:

If people really want to see less farming by human beings (not talking about bots) then what ANet needs to do is add more PvE content. Or at least make it far more rich.

I'd happily do any new quests with non-cookie-cutter builds if there only were some new quests. (Yes, I've done the Kurzick/Luxon stuff.) Farming is the end-game PvE in this game plain and simple. The PvE in Guild Wars is there as a tutorial on the professions and how to become proficient at using your skills. Then you do PvP and devote some time to farming for better gear.

Jeremy Untouchable · Mar 28, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

agree

Ghull Ka · Mar 28, 2006, 09:25 PM // 21:25

I liked your first witty retort better. But since you changed it to this one, I'll go with what I have. Shame on me for feeding a troll further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Why express in a public forum?

Because I choose to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Once you do that then they leave the cave and enter the light.

If I'm seeking enlightnement, I'll meditate. I do not seek enlightenment via online forums. That would be pretty silly.

If I want to discuss being super pissed about the effects Ritualist ashes have in PvE, I'll seek out a topic with a title like "Holy God am I Pissed - PvE and Ritualist ashes".

If I want to discuss the pros and cons of farming, the stigma attached to cookie cutter farming, and the lack of PvE content that leads to farming, I'll go seek out a topic with an appropriate title. I'd encourage you do the same, rather than hijacking this one any further.

As it is, I'm super pissed about the effects Ritualist ashes have in PvE. I hope that ANet changes it, as soon as possible, before the release. 60 AL casters were not designed to be aggro magnet tanks, I don't believe that the ashes skills deserve such a harsh counterbalancing effect attached to them, and PvE in general will suffer greatly from the PUG-forced/Laziness-driven/Opportunistic prevalence of W/Ri ash tanks, as SpeedyKQ noted above.

Them's my opinions on the subject. Still not up for debate.

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

I liked your first witty retort better. But since you changed it to this one, I'll go with what I have. Shame on me for feeding a troll further.

Name calling? A bit shameful but you are expressing your opinions. I'll grant you that.

The only reason I'm a troll in your opinion is because I won't back down from your argument (made in the GWO article) that it's somehow harmful for PvE to have aggro holding items. (I'm not talking about the ritualist urn portion of your argument here.) I disagree with you and all the other people that complain about this. My reasons are selfish for sure, but they don't hurt you or your game play at all. I wonder if I had defended your point with equal vehemence if I would be a "troll" in your eyes. I guess I should confine my self to single posts say "yes I agree" and leave it at that. (No chance of that really so don't get your hopes up.)

With regards to the other part of your argument: namely and 75% useful ritualist class. I'm taking a wait and see attitude as I've said previously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

Because I choose to.If I'm seeking enlightnement, I'll meditate. I do not seek enlightenment via online forums. That would be pretty silly.

You misunderstood me. I don't care about your enlightenment. I was just pointing out that when you put ideas in a public forum expect a response. If you decide to ingore the response that's your choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

If I want to discuss being super pissed about the effects Ritualist ashes have in PvE, I'll seek out a topic with a title like "Holy God am I Pissed - PvE and Ritualist ashes".

Then why did you post the non-relevant portion of your GWO post about gear tanking? You've seemingly contradicted yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

If I want to discuss the pros and cons of farming, the stigma attached to cookie cutter farming, and the lack of PvE content that leads to farming, I'll go seek out a topic with an appropriate title. I'd encourage you do the same, rather than hijacking this one any further.

See my above comment. You seem to have started the hijack or at the very least contributed to its start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

As it is, I'm super pissed about the effects Ritualist ashes have in PvE. I hope that ANet changes it, as soon as possible, before the release. 60 AL casters were not designed to be aggro magnet tanks, I don't believe that the ashes skills deserve such a harsh counterbalancing effect attached to them, and PvE in general will suffer greatly from the PUG-forced/Laziness-driven/Opportunistic prevalence of W/Ri ash tanks, as SpeedyKQ noted above.

Maybe you need a break? If the game gets you that "super-pissed" it might be a life balance issue. Especially over a game that has such a small amount of PvE content and is mostly about PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

Them's my opinions on the subject. Still not up for debate.

Good for you. By posting again you sort of do put them up for debate. Just FYI.

Cartoonhero · Mar 28, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

i noticed this quite readily this weekend. my friend and I both had rituallists, and we were killing stuff out on the luxon side in the channel, and he had 60 dp in no time becasue all the monstors chased him around when he used ashes, and we had a healer hench who did not understand the concept of someone being focus fired. it was terribly obvious the monstors were focusing on him. i do really hope they fix this, as i have no problem with the book trick, you can still play the area normally if you chose by turning in the book...same with the gears...the ashes are a skill...enegy managment, damage, and other such things for the rit. they are hindered if they get swamped by AI by using their ashes. it would be like a monk getting beat on by a mob becasue they used mantra of recall or offering of blood. thats just my two cents.

sunny dai · Mar 28, 2006, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y.T.

i'm not sure but i dont think that all ashes work this way - i've played rit for 10hrs and i didnt notice any uber-aggro when i hold some ashes... mb AI's weird again or only certain ashes are aggro object... have to wait till release to test it carefully.

me too same thing it some times did and sometimes didnt grab aggro all the time, not as much as the gear keg etc does.

EternalTempest · Mar 28, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Something I notices, the "spirts" the rit can summon are chained to a certain loctaion. That bottle may be there so you can draw monster to the area where your spirts can affect them.

From what I played w/ that bottle I did not get mass aggro on me from what I could tell.

Skie_M · Mar 28, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Also, please don't imply that I can't or don't make friends. I've got a fair amount of them regardless of your impression of me.

I never said that you can't or don't make friends. I only said that you might make MORE friends. Very big distinction...

Rhys ap Llysgwr · Mar 28, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Lastly, why will the PvE experience be degraded for you by Ash Tank farming? Nobody can answer this question in this entire thread with any clarity. You're free to party with people who feel like you and don't want an ash tank. Your experience isn't ruined by that is it? If I want to run around with a bunch of ash tank people and have fun how is that messing with you?

One last thing... there will always be optimized farming groups in any game. It's basically about 20 developers against 1 million players. The odds are with the playerbase that people will figure out builds that defeat the simple monster AI the developers created.

Melechric you unbelievable retard.

Why will 5 man W/Ri teams ruin my pve exprience? Well let me give you an example. I wanted to do the sorrow furnace quests recently with one of my characters. But the only groups available are 5 man farm groups. Moreover; 2 monks, an ss, an mm, and a stance tank are the only "accepted" builds for 99% of said groups. Because 5 man gear farming is the "optimal" way to play, its hard to find ppl willing to play in a more challenging and, imho, more fun way. I joined the bandwagon and farmed with them just because I wanted to play - even though it was pathetically easy. Even when I could find a questing group, we still used the gear trick (yawn). And why wouldnt we use it, it would be stupid not to right? Too bad we had that option.

Now thats all well and good for limited areas I suppose, but to have the item trick be used in EVERY pve area would deplete the player base in two ways:

First, ppl who might otherewise enjoy more convnetional play will go the w/ri group route, because it is soooo much easier after all.

Second, ppl like me that think pve is a bit too easy anyway, and have nothing but contempt for the item trick, will leave pve altogether.

It is this depletion of the player base which affects the game for anyone who wants the least bit of challenge in their pve.

If you are so bad at pve that you can't enjoy the game without this exploit, I feel very sorry for you. There is nothing wrong with farming, in fact some of my favorite builds were ones I used to come up with to solo farm with my ele. But a universal ash trick makes not only farming but the entire pve experience brainless and boring.

Skie_M · Mar 28, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

Melechric you unbelievable retard.

If you cannot express your thoughts in an objective or subjective fashion without resorting to personal attacks, then you will most assuredly not be taken seriously. Please cease and desist.

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

Melechric you unbelievable retard.

Name calling... the mark of immaturity. Attack my argument and not me please. I'll ignore the rest of your post until you either apologize/retract or just give up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

Why will 5 ... <snip>

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skie_M

I never said that you can't or don't make friends. I only said that you might make MORE friends. Very big distinction...

Point taken Skie_M. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As a footnote I'd like to mention that I have actually added quite a few farming friends just by being a competent farming player. I've got a good list of people from PvE and PvP now that I really enjoy playing with.

Skie_M · Mar 29, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

My opinions are my own, they are not up for debate.

MelechRic is correct ... Once you put your opinion out in public, you are inviting people to agree or disagree with your sentiments. This is not neccessarily a bad thing, as it can sometimes force one to re-evaluate themselves or their beliefs for the better. This is a subjective change, not an objective one, because you begin from a subjective view and either keep that view or change to accommodate the views of others. You cannot ever objectively insert your opinions. Only facts are objective.

Replicant · Mar 29, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

after reading this post, and being a stance tank for FoW/SF.. I think that they should do something about the AI.. but not to just ignore the person holding the ashes/keg/gear. But increase the chance of the AI to attack Warriors.

To me as a W/Mo, I personally believe that the AI SHOULD have a better chance at attacking the Warrior.. The Warriors only chance at getting into groups for ToPK, SF, FoW is TO get attacked and tank so everyone can be safe.. but with how the AI is in this game is, it completly ignores the warriors and goes for the Monks first, then Eley's, Necros, etc.. usually in my farm groups i'm LAST person standing because of this. Any warrior can agree with me, and yes i do know how to pull properly.

The Warriors are there to take the damage, thats why we got high defense armor.

Manda Panda · Mar 29, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

Why will 5 man W/Ri teams ruin my pve exprience? Well let me give you an example. I wanted to do the sorrow furnace quests recently with one of my characters. But the only groups available are 5 man farm groups. Moreover; 2 monks, an ss, an mm, and a stance tank are the only "accepted" builds for 99% of said groups. Because 5 man gear farming is the "optimal" way to play, its hard to find ppl willing to play in a more challenging and, imho, more fun way.

And the reason they're all farming is because they have finished all the quests or have no desire to do them in the first place. If they couldn't farm SF, they wouldn't be doing the quests. They would just be farming elsewhere.

However, I agree that if ANY area could be item tanked, it would ruin the game for a lot of people.

calamitykell · Mar 29, 2006, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

One last thing:

If people really want to see less farming by human beings (not talking about bots) then what ANet needs to do is add more PvE content. Or at least make it far more rich.

I'd happily do any new quests with non-cookie-cutter builds if there only were some new quests. (Yes, I've done the Kurzick/Luxon stuff.) Farming is the end-game PvE in this game plain and simple. The PvE in Guild Wars is there as a tutorial on the professions and how to become proficient at using your skills. Then you do PvP and devote some time to farming for better gear.

1. Adding more content does not squash farming. In fact, it brings more areas to be farmed. Your logic is amusing, though.

2. Removing the gear/book trick won't nerf farming. You'll just have to actually become a better player. Can't have that, now can we?